Glenrose Cannery Under Threat?

Anthropomorphic and zoomorphic sculpture from Glenrose and St Mungo Cannery sites. Source: Delta heritage passport

The Glenrose Cannery site, which lies on the Fraser River near the Alex Fraser bridge, is one of the mose significant archaeological sites in BC.  The human figure on the left, above, dates to the ‘St Mungo” phase, putting it at between 3500 and 5000 years old.  It might be the oldest known representation of a human being in British Columbia – well, to my knowledge, it is.  Yet, you can already see elements of the formline art appearing – look at the eyebrows, for example.  More importantly, look at the beard.  Look at the hair, pulled into a bun.  This is a portrait of an individual.  The artifact, which is probably a small handle for a chisel, is a masterpiece of Canadian art. The site in which it was found shows continuous occupation from the present to about 9,000 years ago and spans up to eight metres of vertical deposits.

So it is disturbing to think that Glenrose might be further affected by development, in this case, road building associated with the “Gateway Project”, a transportation infrastructure megathrust to get stuff to and from the Ports of Vancouver faster. There is a short article in The Province yesterday (archive) in which UBC Professor Emeritus RG Matson, one of the key figures in BC Archaeology, visits the site.   We can’t preserve everything from the past, clearly, or all cultures at all times would have been glued to the footprints of their forebears.  But a site of such demonstrated significance as Glenrose should probably be completely off limits.

Tom Loy digging at Glenrose, 1973. Source: archaeologyweek.com

Up front, I’ll say I haven’t been following this issue closely and I don’t know that much about the Gateway Plan.The government press release notes the South Fraser Perimeter Road is planned to impact the site, which they describe in the most neutral language humanly possible:

Glenrose Cannery Site – This site has high scientific and cultural significance due to the presence of waterlogged deposits, materials suitable for chronometric dating, diagnostic artifacts, and a wide variety and quantity of artifact types. Investigations suggest that the SFPR alignment is immediately adjacent to, or on, the southern limit of intact archaeological deposits in this area. To avoid or mitigate potential impacts to archaeological resources, an Archaeological Mitigation / Monitoring Plan will be developed and implemented as the design and construction methodology of the SFPR are finalized.

Huh.  Stonehenge, the Pyramids and Chichen Itza also have “diagnostic artifacts, materials suitable for chronometric dating, and a wide variety and quantity of artifact types”. Is that really what makes national treasures?  Fixing the language with which we talk about archaeology is a topic for another day, though.

An enlightened vision of Vancouver. Looking west towards Glenrose Cannery over the South Fraser Perimeter Road. Source: th.gov.bc.ca

I have no doubt that in a narrow sense proper legal procedures are being followed here and that whatever destruction happens will be permitted under the letter of the Heritage Conservation Act,   I know the companion site of St. Mungo has also been heavily impacted but development, although some bridge footings of the Alex Fraser bridge were indeed moved to help protect it.  I’m not calling out any particular agency, company, branch, person, whatever.  I’m just calling for a wider perspective here on a site that should be a national historic treasure and yet is in the firing line. I guess in that sense yeah, I am calling out Canadians. Let’s get it together.  Anyway, maybe those who know more about this case can chip in here.  Remember, you can leave a comment under the nickname of your choice, and your email and identity are not shown, and indeed, your email does not have to even be real.  I want to know what’s going on at Glenrose.  If it’s not much, that’s good news.

Location of Glenrose Cannery and St Mungo sites relative to 5000 year old shoreline (heavy line). All the land to the left of the heavy line did not exist 5,000 years ago. Source: Matson and Coupland 1995 via googlebooks.

A couple of other older newspaper articles here and here. (By the way, I am increasingly linking to  JPGs of newspaper articles, because newspapers just cannot be trusted to keep their links working reliably.  Click on the JPG in your browser to enlarge it to what I hope is a comfortable reading resolution).

Glenrose cannery dig in early 1980s. Help me identify these archaeologists. Source: Now News.

Update, October 7th. Professor RG Matson kindly sent me the photos below of excavation at Glenrose Cannery.  I had had a caption earlier on the Tom Loy picture above which could easily have been read as shoring wasn’t used at Glenrose.  The pictures below show extensive use of shoring, probably in excess of the normal standard of the day. As RG notes, and agreed I may post here:

In most of the units, shoring was not used, as one slide from 1973 [#1, below] shows. However, in the deepest units, shoring was definitely used as the other two slides (both 1973) show.  The two slides with shoring show (I think) the excavation of Unit 55, the 1 x 2m “Baulk” between units 1 and 5, the two deepest units (5+m) at the site.  They also show why very few useful slides (and B/W) photos exist.  With the shoring and lack of light it was tough to get decent pictures, so not much effort was spent in that area.  Most of the existing photos are of relatively small areas “Features”, and taken overhead.

The units in 1973, were covered with heavy plywood and had locks on them when not being excavated, as these holes were dangerous

Anyway, back in the day not everything at any site was done by WCB rules, but its obvious there was attention to this important safety issue at Glenrose under RG’s direction.  Other than that, it is great to see these new pictures of such an important and historic dig, so thanks to RG for scanning them in and sharing them.  They really emphasize the depth and substance of the deposits at Glenrose and visually should cue us to what an exceptional site this is.

1. Excavation at Glenrose, 1973. Courtesy of RG Matson.

2. Glenrose excavations, including use of shoring, 1973. Courtesy of RG Matson

#3. Detail of deep shoring at Glenrose, early 1970s. Courtesy of RG Matson.


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168 responses to “Glenrose Cannery Under Threat?

  1. Based on the Archaeology only, If this new development can provide an opportunity to fully excavate the site and create an interpretive opportunity during and after excavation, then why not do it?

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  2. Hi Karen,

    Yeah, I acknowledged not everything from the past can be preserved, but in this case my concern is that it is an iconic site proven to be of the highest significance, and I am just wondering if indeed the impact assessments and interpretation will reflect that. The archaeology of the Lower Mainland is dying a death by a thousand cuts, so to speak. Each little impact can be argued to be necessary, but zoom out, and the whole impact may be greater than the sum of the parts. I’d like to see something like a “Fraser Delta Integrated Archaeological Management Plan” . If such a thing already exists, my apologies, I’d like to see it.

    If by “fully excavate” you really do mean “fully” then ok. But I am afraid — and happy to be shown to be wrong — that the extent of excavation, and analysis, and interpretation, will not reflect the importance of this particular site.

    Anyway, like I said, I am trawling for information here, and curious.

    Also, yours was the 1,000th comment on this blog!

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  3. I heard there was a segment on Global television which aired on Thursday on the proposed freeway development along with an interview with RG Matson. Anyone seen this or know of a link ?

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  4. I have to be careful not to cross the line of confidentiality agreements, but I think if you “dig” a bit Q you will see the critical part or the current development is the phrase “immediately adjacent to, or on, the southern limit of intact archaeological deposits “.

    I was first concerned that the highway was going to go over the wet site (which it isn’t). I just read over my 1990 report on the wet site (preparing an abstract for an upcoming publication) and was reminded of the amazing amount of new information about the St Mungo Phase/Charles Culture Type that we obtained with a tiny crew of 5 people in just 5 days; compared to the thousands of hours spent on the dry site component. We confirmed the oldest (at that time) fish traps on the Northwest Coast; found the earliest shredded cedar bark garment; discovered a basic weave style that is unique in the world (kind of like finding a whole new Kingdom in biology); from the half-dozen baskets, got hints of the links — and lack of links — to cultures both later archaeological and to general language groups of the ‘Contact’ period; found a diagnostic Charles incised stone palette with both black and red paint traces in the cuts; a carved wooden tray; confirmed an abundant presence of salmon, but also a major component of sturgeon, and whopping big sturgeon at that, in the 4,000 BP diet. Much of the wet site is now capped by geotextile and rip-rap boulders in an effort to protect it from boat wash and pothunters; but then much of it is still open with ongoing unmitigated impacts.

    The pothunters continue to patrol at low tide. I was shown a second example of the unique basket weaving type (what I termed ‘dual warp wrapping’) that was found and rescued by one of them as it washed away. He’d also done what appeared to be a damn good job of conservation (without regard to the niceties of reversability etc, but it looked excellent). Of course the basket has disappeared from view and there is no official public record of its existence. But at least I know the weaving style isn’t a one-off. I have some sympathy with the collectors that claim that in these situations they are the only ones that care, and that academic, government, corporate, and First Nations archaeologists just aren’t there to see this stuff as it is exposed by one or two tides then floats off from the wash of the next tug that passes.

    The government-funded study that we did included geological study (by Dr. John Harper of clam garden fame) and engineering study, and was followed up by a study of the less-significant but contemporaneous St Mungo wet site. Those studies were 20 years ago now and other than the preservation by capping, there has been no further mitigation or investigation of these fantastic wet sites. It seems the only time money is spent is when a site is destroyed; and then the study is limited to a few ‘telephone booths’ comprising a couple of percent of the destroyed volume, that reveal virtually no information about features, households, etc etc.

    Rant over — for now — I feel much better thank you!! 🙂

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    • Anyone wanting to see that particular Basketry fragment from St Mungo should be able to see it as I donated a piece of it years ago to the Planetarium museum in Vancouver. I still have one other fragment from that same basket that can be viewed or photographed by anyone interested by appointment. It was well preserved and is reversible by soaking in water if it was needed. I also would make available several other images of artifacts from this site that reside in many different collections around the lower mainland. Many are unbelievable and very unique! None were dug and all were salvaged from destruction by private individuals walking the sites and river banks at low tides to the best of my knowledge. The Amateur Archaeologists/Collectors have a lot to offer and really need to be looked at in a different light if things are ever going to change for the best interest of archaeology and preservation of this important information and site in particular. I have a lot to offer and a passion for preserving this important area and window into the past it would provide and all the significant information it holds as much as anyone…….

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  5. A relatively unimportant sidenote to this post but the map figure from Matson and Coupland’s book you show above incorrectly depicts the location of the Marpole site, which is quite a bit further downriver (~6km).

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  6. There was indeed a Global feature on this site that aired on Thursday. There was also an article written by Brian Lewis in the Province on Friday.
    http://www.theprovince.com/travel/Ancient+history+could+paved/3607215/story.html

    Qmackie, I tried to invite you to the event Global and the Province came to by commenting on a different post on your blog…

    Karen, what do you think is better? A properly preserved site, or an interpretive centre beside is loud 4-lane truck route? If it is the latter, please explain why.

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  7. Hi Richelle,

    Sorry, I interpreted your invitation as being directed at Tony Hardie, who duly responded. My email is under the “about” tab at the top.

    By the way, I thought the Sunbury general archaeology writeup was very well done:

    http://www.sunburyneighbourhood.ca/Archaeology.htm

    In British Columbia, we utilize and promote native symbols, design, art and history, and we are happy to bundle them up and send them off around the world to showcase what the great academics and professors of the world say is unrivalled. Yet, here at home, we don’t protect them. If the Glenrose site is not protected, in the future they will look back and say what fools we were!

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  8. Karen wrote: “Based on the Archaeology only, If this new development can provide an opportunity to fully excavate the site and create an interpretive opportunity during and after excavation, then why not do it?”

    Karen, there is no reasonable basis to consider “Archaeology only” considering what we know about Easter Island, Tikal and other civilizations that collapsed. People are concerned about ecological overshoot and global warming largely because of what archaeology has taught us about the past, and our potential futures.

    People don’t support archaeology so people can dig up pretty crap and ignore the context. Please try to gather some wisdom along with all the information. Then think about taking some action. Maybe you could even show up on Oct 10 see Dig4Justice.org

    Or maybe is all just about digging crap up and studiously ignoring what it means.

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    • Hi Eric,

      First, the dig4justice event ( http://canadians.org/events/dig.html ) sounds intriguing. If there is one thing archaeologists can do, it’s dig.

      Archaeology is itself destructive – digging is destroying, and the trade is a dirt record for a paper one. In this trade, the paper record had better be pretty damn good. That’s part of the context that archaeologists get, and the debate in the archaeology community is often, did we get a good trade between dirt and paper, so to speak. Many times, when projects are rushed, when money runs out, when the mandate is too limited, even when the weather turns bad, then no, no we don’t make a good trade.

      But you are right, there is a broader social context we need to be engaged in. Not, “if Glenrose is dug, what will we learn” but should Glenrose be dug at all, and especially, “why is Glenrose being dug”? Failure in this regard is what leads to the death by a thousand cuts approach and why I think we need to see integrated plans emerge vs case-case decision making. And that, like the decision about this road, is a community decision belonging to citizens.

      I’m not sure if this even responds to your comment but what the heck!

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      • The practice of archaeology is the practice of compromise. Every excavation that has ever been done has entailed a large suite of compromises – how you dig, what you record, how you screen, how you go about recognising change in stratigraphy or other subtle differences while digging, what you choose to analyse and how you do it, how you write it up and what of the huge amounts of data you choose to leave out or bury in an appendix or box of notes sent to a museum, and on and on and on. This is one reason it is vitally important to have clearly articulated research questions and designs so that these compromises are articulated or otherwise transparent.

        The Province recently added Cumulative Effects to the necessary considerations during the Environmental Assesssment Act reviews. This is bound to pose an interesting challenge to archaeologists since it is not something that has been done in BC. How will the archaeologists quantify and qualify the “thousand cuts” now that there is a processual need to do so? I think the outcomes could be very important and might even go some way to addressing qmackie’s concerns about this topic.

        A lower mainland resource management plan is a good idea, though a huge one, and it would need regular updating to keep it current. Given the state of resources in the Archaeology Branch it is hard to imagine this happening any time soon. Other parts of BC need this kind of thing too. There are a lot of questions that could be asked of any number of sites if people stopped to think about it and a management plan could do the thinking and in a sense spoon feed those that don’t have time or aptitude for thinking. It is job that certainly should have input from the academics active in the local area(s) as they are more likely to have been thinking synthetically about the region than the cultural resource managment community with tends to be focussed on a project by project basis.

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    • qmackie wrote “I’m not sure if this even responds to your comment”

      Quite right, it does not. Ditto for APM’s comment. Disturbing but not surprising.

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  9. Part of the rationale behind improper excavation of these sites and inadequate investigation of the material that comes out of them is political. The provincial government doesn’t want to see anything come out of there that might serve to strengthen the position of the First Nations and compromise the position of the Provincial Crown.

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  10. BC Archaeologist

    Victor, that’s a load of bollucks. And its deeply insulting to imply that the professional archaeological community would be complicit in such a consipiracy. They are doing the best they can in the face of development pressures all over the province. Its especially insulting to the archaeologists that work at the provincial Archaeology Branch who, contrary to your foetid imagination, do not have political minions perched on their shoulders whispering instructions.

    What more can come out of Glenrose that the *courts* would pay any attention to? Continuously occupied for 9,000 years as qmackie says above – that is pretty much all that the courts would be interested in (read some court decisions, archaeological data have a very low profile in the courts). Especially since it is almost impossible to assign ethnicity to most archaeological remains. In fact, Glenrose and St. Mungo combined have several archeological cultures represented. Chances are pretty good that these are not all ancestral to the current groups that claim in this area. More archaeological excavation might make a stronger case for population movements and lesser time depth to modern First Nation’s territories. That could strengthen the position of the Provincial Crown. Or at least it would if the courts had not already made it clear that First Nations in place when the Crown declared sovereignty over BC in 1846 have a legitimate claim to that location.

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    • Good letter, BC Archaeologist. Also worth noting the Supreme Court of Canada has affirmed oral history as admissable in court, and not hear-say, which de facto could be said to have lowered the importance of archaeological evidence. I guess you’d point to Delgamuukw and subsequent decisions on this front.

      Although archaeology can still add powerful moral persuasion to arguments about First Nations’ rights and you even see First Nations using it this way, for example, leading off their web page “about” or “history” sections with statements along the lines of “We have occupied this land for 11,000 years” or whatever. With the exception of CMTs, this is likely to be the main role of archaeology in land claims and you are right that it would be pointless for the government to have a conspiracy to suppress Glenrose.

      It is much more likely they don’t want to spend the money, or, to put that another way, they don’t want the money to be spent by their private sector allies, on archaeology which they see as an impediment or burden on development. But in seeing it that way they are actually in synch with big chunks of the population of BC and so it is good politics. And it is good politics all around, which is why you don’t really see too much difference in the archaeological record of Liberals or NDPs or even SOCREDs. Like someone posted here long ago (long time lurker, first time poster! nice blog BTW), the earliest heritage protection laws in 1920-something were by a conservative government and most of the legislation since then has been passed by right wing governments and it is basically good legislation. The problem is cultural first and political second.

      So yeah, Victor, I think your comment is off base, it’s a little more subtle of a problem……

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  11. It looks like BC Archaeologist and rock flour (welcome) have addressed Victor’s comment, but just the fact that there is room for the theory that the Government would have that agenda should give them pause. I lean more to rock flour’s opinion that we should follow the money. Archaeology is not that directly important in land claims, as BC Archaeologist points out, the BC government conceded the point that the FN were here first (kind of a, “WTF, you were arguing that they weren’t?” moment).

    Anyway, I don’t think the archaeology branch has political devils on their shoulders, day in day out. I do think there is a strategic decision to starve them of resources (just as forests and environment and parks and whomever are also starved) in order to subtly weaken the regulatory framework that is a constraint on development. Thus, for example, they can say “no money” when an Archaeology Branch officer needs to go into the field to gather unbiased data about some problem or other. They can say, “here, do these extra ten projects because there is no one else to to do them”, and then they get done less well than optimal.

    There’s lots of ways to cripple a system but politically starving it of resources is the most expedient and in some ways the hardest one to detect, since there is always plausible deniability about overall budgets, taxes, blahdeddyblah. That’s not a conspiracy, that’s politics, and the answer back is ultimately a political one.

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  12. I’m sorry you’ve taken offense at my comment BC Archaeologist, but I wasn’t implying that archaeologists are complicit. As outlined by Rock Flour, they needn’t be for such a thing to work. Withholding finance and other resources works just fine to make such a plan effective.

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    • Hi Victor, I think the objection was to your notion that the BC Government thinks archaeology would weaken he position of the crown. I guess it isn’t clear to me what you mean about politics if you don’t mean in reference to land claims? I’m curious, not giving you third degree here.

      Either way, I think we agree that even if we accept rock flour’s argument or mine that it is about money, the mechanism does not implicate individual archaeologists working for the government who are on the side of conservation and in my experience, knowing some of them pretty well 🙂 they care about the archaeological record as much or more than anyone in the province. If they are hamstrung in their work, we need to focus clearly on the wheels that turn that make it so – while I am as critical of them as the next person, the archaeology branch catches a fair bit of undeserved shit as it stands so not looking for a pile-on in this case study. Money is political of course, but in a more precise and knowable way than many kinds of politics.

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  13. This Youtube link was passed on to me, it’s the Global News report referenced above by Richelle (who features in the report herself!). (Global makes it impossible to direct link to anything so their fate is to be viewed via youtube).

    There is good footage of RG Matson showing off the site and some artifacts, and a brief shot of “St Mungo Man”, the sculpture referenced at the very top of this post – actually the first time I have ever seen anything other than the picture which is in Prehistory of the NW Coast. It’s a superb little item. There’s also commentary from the no-road group and from the Musqueam First Nation, so all around it is a pretty good TV news report – well above the low bar I set for those!!

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  14. Thanks for the link! I wonder if this will be a topic of discussion at the BC Arch forum?

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  15. I which I could attend the Arch forum, but likely not able to this year.

    Fully excavating is a large order, and appropriate interpretive opportunities would need some research and in depth consultation, and that is what I presume when I say those things (comment #1).
    I am not blogging to get people mad. I feel that there are a lot of things that happen – sites not fully understood, a circle put around them, development then skirts them, and then the “opportunity” to find out more about something that we do not know everything about….As everyone knows a lot of people died, the majority, and a lot of cultural info died with them – it has not all survived through the survivers. We know what the word “history” means. Archaeology, in the most comprehensive sense, can help us get a more rounded picture of the past, and I have found that interpretive opportunities go a long way to getting the public engaged and understanding, and then more funding will be allocated to better policies for protecting and experiencing archaeology / culture of the land.
    As for a post-excavation interpretive opportunity, it should be worked into the development itself, in the form of a museum and ongoing excavation, if possible… or, if there were, say a sky-train station associated with it, or some other kind of depot, that then the interpretive opportunity could take place right there where people can readily see it in their daily lives. There are some examples that are good, like the Sandspit airport, where there are archival photos, paintings, displays of the prehistoric and historic cultures of the area. It could be better, though. I wonder what other examples people have?

    Oh and BTW, at this time, I do not agree with the idea that the BC Govt may have a political motivation here. In my experience, the provincial govt is doing what First Nation govts tell them to do with regards to archaeology, due to legalities that you are all aware of I am sure. However, I live on Haida Gwaii / the Charlottes, and we just signed a reconciliation agreement this year, so things are different up (out) here, and I do not have a lot of experience in other parts of the province.

    Thanks for the dialogue.

    I like very much being the 1000th commentator!

    Karen C

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  16. APM – it is good to know about the cumulative effects thing.

    Here is one of my hobby horses – it seems many archaeologists value the last 10% of a damaged site less than the first 10% of an undamaged one. That is, a site that is heavily impacted may well have slivers of intact deposits remaining. I think of the incredibly important sliver alongside the railway right of way that Duncan McLaren found at the Stave powerhouse. I think of the scrap of midden between highway and ditch at Crescent Beach. Yet a heavily damaged site may have the perception that it is now expendable whereas the exact opposite is true: the tiny bit that may be left is an irreplaceable bit, whereas a site that has seen little impact could, in principle, absorb a little punishment and still live to tell its story. OK, off of hobby horse.

    Yes, a master plan would be work and need updating – again I’d note that the objection comes down to resources made available by the government – but for an urban complex of what, three million people, an archaeological overview plan seems like it should be possible to fund. Maybe the GVRD should be getting pro-active in this matter. What would the Archaeology Branch say, I wonder, if the GVRD came forward with a plan? The AB has primary responsibility for the Heritage Conservation Act (though the NE Oil and Gas devolution sets a precedent, perhaps). Would the AB be willing to work with a community archaeology plan, I wonder.

    Karen – thanks for your further comment. As I’ve commented, we can’t protect everything and the challenge then becomes how can we manage destruction in as mindful a way as possible. Your description of such a project sounds like it would be a lasting benefit to education, and certainly there are inspiring examples from around the world of public archaeology changing minds and hearts about contemporary society.

    I agree too about the places of display – naturally First Nations must be on board, but I know the Sandspit airport well and it does achieve a small victory on this front. I’d like to see archaeology displays in shopping malls. Imagine the ASBC taking some professional poster boards and an information table to Oakridge Mall on Saturdays.

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  17. Q, the gal on the right in your bottom photo is Helen Lemon. She participated on a number of arky projects in BC during the early ’80s. After a summer with Parks Canada in 84, i believe she hung up her trowel (and stadia rod), married, and is now (i believe) living in the Gulf Islands.

    cheers

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  18. I’ve updated the post above to include some pictures and short commentary sent to me by Professor RG Matson, who graciously agreed to them being appended here. These pictures really affirm the importance of Glenrose as a deeply stratified site. They’re quite mind-blowing really.

    Bluesboy: I knew I could count on you for I.D. of early 1980s archaeologists of the opposite sex.

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  19. There was a peel taken of one wall of this strat, 4m deep and maybe 3 or 4m wide, which was on display at the RBCM for many years. Rumour has it (I think it was an archaeologist at the musuem that mentioned it to me, but can no longer remember for sure) that the exhibits staff ripped it out and threw it away. The broken pieces are said to have been rescued from the garbage by the archaeological staff and kept. Until once again some ignoramus (that would be my editorial comment, not the person that told me, well … actually maybe that is not true) found them and this time broke them into smaller pieces and threw it away again. Such peels contain a ton of information which with modern methods can be mined for all kinds of purposes. So, if this rumour is true, then it was a very unfortunate loss tantamount to losing a few trays of artifacts or boxes of faunal remains.

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  20. That just crystallizes for me a point I am apprehensive about for the current Glenrose issue. With proven deposits to over five metres deep in at least some parts of the site, how are site boundaries being determined? Shovel tests just aren’t going to do it, and augering is going to be a struggle to that depth.

    Again I’m up front about not knowing much about the site or the part that would be impacted. But I’m sure we’ve all seen instances where surficial testing methods have come up short against deep sites or old sites with lots of overburden, or recent historical changes. Little Beach comes to mind. Now perhaps the impacted portion of Glenrose is not that deep, maybe it’s a thin fringe of site around the perimeter of a deep site. Or, maybe it’s the upland, old, even deeper portion of a site which crept down towards the river over time. It’s going to take the highest degree of personal and professional integrity and perseverance just to confidently establish the true boundaries of the site, and I wish those qualities onto whichever company’s employees end up doing this important work. I wonder if it calls for Ground Penetrating Radar work, or ESR or some other geophysics work, if that work is being required or proposed?

    If it comes to possible salvage excavation of a five metre deep site, that’s something we seldom if ever see in BC archaeology and I wonder who out there is even passingly experienced in deep and complex stratigraphy of that kind.

    Solution: bring RG out of retirement!!

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  21. There are six known archaeology sites that will be directly impacted by the SFPR, and according to the Environmental Application, many more unknown sites will likely be found and impacted during construction. The Glenrose site will be heavily impacted, not just “the southern limit”, and if we take the example of the building of the Golden Ears Bridge… a 3500 year old Katzie village site was discovered on the Pitt Meadows side… First Nations were given a small window to recover what they could, (a month? month and a half?), and then were told to get out of the way as the rest of the site was destroyed by the completion of the roadway project. The St. Mungo site was not much different as they found later that the footing for the Alex Fraser bridge was moved, but to the middle of the site, thereby destroying most of it. The Glenrose site is not only full of artifacts, but there are also a dozen known burial plots, many of which are within the alignment of the roadway.
    With the impacts to our heritage, endangered species at risk, and Burns Bog it is obvious the highway is being built in the wrong spot… The losses will be significant and irreversible.

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  22. I have sent some images of some of the salvaged artifacts that reside in private collections. Some real amazing items to say the least….and no, they are not mine nor did collect them except for the Basket Fragment. I intend on publishing as many of these collections as i can in a book in the future so all my learn and enjoy them in the future. It is a work in progress…..

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    • Tony, since you already have a website with many photos of artifacts (for sale) on it, why don’t you just show these St Mungo artifacts there or on a similar site for all to see at no cost?? This seems to be right in step with your passion to help educate and obviously this medium (the web) seems the ideal place to do that…

      (I still cannot believe prehistoric artifacts can be sold online in Canada – what’s up with that!)

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  23. Jim
    I had a save Glenrose facebook page with hundreds of items and pictures of the cannery, the site and artifacts salvaged over the years but it just seems that with the way the professional community looks at the collectors that took the time to walk the beach at low tides and pick them up on there own time without pay are frowned upon and all referred to as pot hunters and threatened with people coming and taking what they found claiming its stolen property and such. Several who shared images and opened doors for me to see what had been preserved by them over the last 30 years asked me to remove the album and the pictures from my profile. Its a real shame as I really wanted the world to see what is about to be covered and destroyed by so called progress…….We have all known this highway was going thru here for years, why was there not a salvage dig started years ago? It would take years to do this properly. Why is it not going on now? Why have the First Nations hired Leonard Ham to over see the project insted of the government? He wont even take the time to investigate recent pot hunter holes I personally pointed out to him? He even claimed to me I was wrong about the fact that it will be going right thru burial plots and told me there are none! I love how they screened all the fencing around the site to hide what they are doing from the public as well! So very very sad…….things need to change before all these important and very significant sites are gone forever!

    Like

    • All apologies Tony,
      Taking the time to actually review this thread I see my comments are out of context (still would be nice to have a site to see the artifacts). I did hear a few years ago about St Mungo’s going to be impacted by the highway and mitigative arch work required (lots of work). That type and scope of ‘mitigation’ can be based upon a formula kinda thing, the Golden Ears bridge excavation noted above was a ‘mitigative’ excavation with some very worthwhile results. However, in the world of bureaucracy where ‘significance’ is taken very seriously (that’s a joke), it would seem some sites do deserve to be preserved and others ‘mitigated’. From an archaeological standpoint, this site should be preserved – no question. Q mentions several instances where much more can be learned from a site upon each visit, day after day, year after year or what have you. This can be in the form of material culture (the ‘crap’ alluded to by Don above) or simply be the place. Obviously this was a good place for a long time and from the response of you and other local people, it still is today. What heritage will be left here in BC? As part of the upcoming arch forum, I think I will take a visit to the site and see what all the fuss is about. Thanks.

      Like

  24. No worries I’m used to it, Jim if you would like you can call me before you go I would be happy to meet and show you some things inperticulare at the site that you may be able to pass on to the form. It would be very nice to meet you in person and I would also be willing to open my door to you and let you see first hand what I have from the site and the rest of my BC Artifacts showroom/museum. I think you may find it very interesting…

    Like

  25. Do you have a mechanism for sharing this? In response to the question about why FN’s aren’t involved with this, I’d like to share this with them. Leona Sparrow at Musqueam Treaty Dept. in particular.

    Like

  26. Thanks for the interesting photos Tony, truly some eyeboggling material both in quantity and quality there.

    I had the good luck to go to the Golden Ears project – the Katzie Wapato water gardens I mean – an it was indeed fascinating to see what millions of dollars of archaeology would buy. I know there has been significant data overload from that project with all the organic technology, the wapato themselves, as well as the above mentioned huge numbers of other artifacts. I sure hope the budget is holding out to allow continuing analysis eventual full reporting and analysis on that material. It’s potentially a sensitive and awkward set of issues that arise when a relatively small First Nation has an archaeological project of that magnitude and significance to oversee – a vast logistical challenge and a daunting mountain of data. When I visited everything looked to be unfolding at a very high standard but I am sure all archaeologists have seen how momentum can be sapped once the field work is over. (I am not at all suggesting this is the case at Golden Ears, I have no idea). (And Don Hunt – I am not sure if your estimate of six weeks in the field is accurate, it seemed to be longer term than that but I am sure some reader knows)

    Anyway, as an analogue of the scale of Cultural Resource Management project routinely undertaken in Europe, Japan and the United States it was an interesting glimpse into what can be learned and some of the logistical challenges that arise in what was, I imagine, BC’s largest and most expensive single dig, to date. I could imagine any number of projects where comparable money was unleashed, with an even smaller First Nation – prhaps one without its own development corporation or comparable infrastucture – and whereby the intrinsic desire to closely control one’s own archaeological heritage rather abruptly meets the exigencies of a multi-year, technically specialized, project which could easily overwhelm any small community.

    Whether this means we’ll see more or fewer of such projects I don’t know – maybe avoidance will now be a higher priority – but if anyone has shareable information or shareable updates about that project then it would be fun to hear about it.

    Like

  27. CTV news ran a story about Glenrose last night. I haven’t been able to find a direct link, but you can currently view it from http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/
    It’s under the heading “Top News Videos” on the right-hand side of the page, down near the bottom. The story is called “Peter Grainger on threatened archaeological site”.

    Like

  28. Just a note or two regarding that video, I was very surprised it aired at all as that footage was shot for a segment on CTV First story that ran last Sunday at 5pm. I was contacted and asked for the interview after they had read the posts on this site. Funny how things come about eh. Sure seems like There must have been a good pay off somewhere for the Band Council to treat the media that waywhen they were asked about why nothing is being done to preserve these sites and burial areas, especially when the questions are coming from First Nation based media! Anyway as with most stories that get on TV or the news there was a couple things I would like to add. I do not frequent the site very often as stated and the only reason I went that day was because they asked me to show them around.

    Like

  29. The trees at Glenrose Cannery are being logged now.
    They are clear-cutting between there and St. Mungos, then using heavy machinery to drag and haul the trees away.

    Like

  30. The First Story piece is now available online.
    http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/firststory/
    The link is under Top Videos, the story is called Gateway – Drew Hayden Taylor.

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  31. Where is the salvage dig? Why is not taking place before this site is covered and gone? This just makes me so mad and sad at the same time! Were are the volunteers? Where are the professionals now? This is not about money, its about our past being lost forever! There is so much to be learned from the many generations that lived and fished here before us! This is an amazing site with a wealth of history and thousands of amazing artifacts that are about to be destroyed. I am willing to go and take time off work and donate many hours of my time for free! Time is running out very fast!! This is so sad! There will be more information lost here than anyone will ever want or be willing to admit. Why????

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  32. Thanks, Richelle. I saw a bit of this on the TV a couple of weeks ago but couldn’t find it online. It looked to be very well produced and I must say Tony (hi Tony) comes off as well spoken and passionate for the Glenrose site. No doubt we have some serious differences of opinion but also we could probably have an enjoyable beer. I may do a post in the days ahead about this documentary.

    Anyway, in the meantime, I poked around in the CTV page source and I think this is a direct link to the video:

    http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110323/bc_1312_first_story_gateway_drew_haydon_taylor_110323/20110323

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  33. Why does the heritage act not play a role when dealing with the government? Why are they aloud to destroy, hide, damage and remove artifacts and alter an archaeological resource such as this site? This is not the first time this site has been hit by so called progress. The rail way goes right thru it, the cannery was built on the middle of it and River road covers a part of it, the Alex Fraser Bridge destroyed a massive part of it? Now the New Highway will take a huge portion of it and cover it with concrete and black top as well! What a great job of preservation the province is doing! What a joke, Grrrr

    If your ever in North Delta Quentin you can certainly come by and share a story or two and a coffee or beer. Might be fun and enlightening for us both. That goes for any of the rest of you with a passion and interest in Northwest Pre-History. I love to share my passion and collection with others with this interest. I will be doing my annual display and Show in Queens Park next month as well on the 9th and 10th in the arena.

    Like

  34. Thought I would share a few pictures of the very sad clear-cut at Glenrose Cannery taken yesterday. The corner notched knife was found in the clear-cut area laying right on top of the ground just above the destroyed and decimated stream and the recent pot hunter/looter hole I also discovered. It was semi hidden and do belive this guy will be back digging here again. I will be waching for him or her and will take their picture if i see them and contact the delta police. I walked the beach back and took many photos of the exposed midden that is over six feet deep in spots at beach level. Salvaged a couple beads, A broken antler wedge tip, a hand chopper and very nice large polished hammer stone as well as a fine triangular point with beveled edges all laying on the surface waiting for the next tide to come in and wash them away.

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  35. Thanks Tony,

    In case it isn’t obvious to all readers, click the link formed by “Tony Hardie” above or click here:

    http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=282896&id=622563044&l=4985237325

    (I don’t think you need a facebook account or to be logged into facebook to view the gallery).

    I don’t know the site well enough to talk about what I am seeing. Is the clear-cut area the limit of the construction disturbance? Is the plan for this area just to “monitor” while construction proceeds?

    (“Monitoring” usually refers to having archaeologists working beside machines such as backhoes and excavators, using rakes and shovels to poke through the backdirt for bones and artifacts. It doesn’t really count as “archaeology” in my book but it forms a high percentage of what archaeologists do in this province. Different sites and permits may have different management plans for what happens when significant remains are exposed in this manner or when obviously intact deposits are encountered. I don’t know what is proposed for Glenrose, this is just general information. The point that Glenrose is one of the most significant known sites in the province remains, of course. I think they are planning for excavation up to 5 metres deep in some places, so obviously significant parts of the site are going to be destroyed.)

    Like

    • Who is monitoring the sites? Mr Ham? My feeling is he has been paid to help hide the findings from public. He did not care about the digger holes on the site when I personally asked him if he wanted to know were they were or the burials. I will be watching when they hit the KNOWN burials that he claimed don’t exist, what a pile! These are ancestors and deserve better treatment regardless of cost to highways!

      Like

  36. Tony, I found numerous big holes down there during the summer. The police didn’t come when I phoned them. Had they came, they could have caught looters red-handed. I tried for a long time to deal with this issue but because of the lack of support or interest from those who are supposed to care about this sites, I’ve all but given up.

    Quentin, the clear cut runs the entire length of North Delta’s escarpment… all the way from St. Mungo to the Surrey Port. The entire riverbank in this area has had artifacts found along it. I have a lot of information on this if you want it. Feel free to contact me by email if you’d like more information.

    If you, and/or any other people, are interested in preserving the historical importance of this neighbourhood, please help us fight this freeway. An action is being planned for April 22 (Earth Day). It will be a family-friendly event, with fun & games for the kids, and a variety of ways to be involved, depending on your comfort level. There will be people there taking direct action, as well as others (such as myself) who will be there to show support. The coming event was featured on the news recently: http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=igyWVFtL8um0AMsiNLcEu5drZAHuI_9M

    If you want to learn more about the direct action or get involved, check out: http://www.stopthepave.org
    My neighbourhood needs all the help we can get.

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  37. Could there not be a higher potential land-form in the ENTIRE province for archaeological deposits than the stable outlet at the ‘old mouth’ of the largest and most productive salmon river on the Northwest Coast? Is this not akin to Cairo and the old mouth of Nile? I wonder what they’d do in Egypt?

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  38. Like Egypt, my vision for this site would be to raise the highway over the sites of Glenrose and St Mungo, have on going virtual museum and park set up with ongoing wetsite and dry land controlled excavations that the public and schools could come to and learn from and see in progress. This would increase public awareness about the 10 000 years of occupation and fishing that has taken place there. Ministry of tourism would play a very large role in funding of the project. The site could be used for training new archaeology students so the ministry of education could also help. The cannery should and could be restored and used to house the artifacts found and set up as the main interpretive centre. Bus loads of tourists and student will and would attend year round. This project would protect and preserve the site for many generations to learn from. The money is there for a public/private partnership as I believe the cannery is now owned by Jimmy Pattison right? The damage to put footings thru the sites rather than pave the entire surface would be way lest harmful to the rich resource of information and artifact treasures that lay buried there. I would love to help spear head this type of project but time is running out fast!! Please don’t wait if you think you can help with this or any other plan as its the best answer for this area by far!!!

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  39. Tony – I think the big questions in my mind about the archaeology program for Glenrose are (a) how much of the project is going to be “monitoring”, which exemplifies the role of the Heritage Conservation Act as the means ny which the Controlled Destruction of Heritage is enabled. Picking stuff up after the bulldozer rolls by is practically indistinguishable from collecting, and (b) are they going to actually dig deep deposits there and if so, what percentage and who will be doing it. I trust it will be someone with experience in such deep and complex strata. Frankly, most archaeologists in BC do not have that experience.

    Also, I really like your idea of an archaeology museum in the cannery there. I think this would be an amazing focal point for the archaeology of SW BC and do a lot to engender good feelings and great information about the discipline and the site itself.

    Richelle – thanks for the info. I don’t have much time or energy for this blog right now but would like to do more on Glenrose and if I do it in time I will mention your event.

    twoeyes – I love the analogy and think it could be a useful hook for people to understand what Glenrose is all about. However, my inner pedant has to point out it is Alexandria at the mouth of the Nile, not Cairo.

    But, you know,b that works even better when we consider that Alexandria is est known for the loss of its irreplaceable library. And surely that is what Glenrose is – only we are burning it down on purpose.

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    • Alexandria is at the mouth now but wouldn’t Cairo have been at the mouth before mid-Holocene sea level change….

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    • I have sent a letter to Christy Clark about the issues and also spent several hours walking the sites yesterday. I have added several more images of the sites, the beach and midden to the Facebook page linked above. I have also added some info to the pictures. I have also put my save Glenrose page back on facebook with a ton of pictures of salvaged items from many different private collections. You my veiw these by sending me a facebook friend request. Wish there was more I could do to help?? This area is so amazing. I must note that is was strange not seeing any more net sheds or logs along the stretch of beach between the sites anymore. All have been removed and or washed away now…

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      • My responce from Victoria:
        Thank you for your email regarding preservation of the Glenrose Cannery
        archaeological site in North Delta.

        We appreciate the time that you have taken to share your views with us and have
        forwarded your email to the Honourable Blair Lekstrom, Minister of Transportation and
        Infrastructure, and the Honourable Steve Thomson, Minister of Forests, Lands and
        Natural Resource Operations, for their review and consideration as well. You can be
        assured that your comments will be included in related discussions between the
        Ministers and their staff.

        Again, thank you for writing.

        pc: Honourable Blair Lekstrom
        Honourable Steve Thomson

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  40. I understand that the cannery will be demolished very soon! Maybe as early as Tuesday. This is very very sad and I am very disapointed with so called progress and the destruction of such an important place in Deltas history……..

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    • Tony, I didn’t see you at the event yesterday. If you want to come out and show support, there are people that are camping out, occupying the freeway construction site. Any and all support is appreciated, and visitors are definitely welcome. They are reforesting the hillside, and have over 200 trees to plant. Feel free to go plant a couple!
      10739 River Rd., the cross street is McAdam

      If the Cannery is coming down soon, that explains all the police around there today (two cruisers)… as that is pretty far away from the protest.

      Like

  41. Went there today,and showed support. Sorry I missed you there. Tony

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  42. Was very nice to finally see some archeology work being done at St Mungo DgRr2 today. Who is doing the work? They would not answer any questions? Love to see what is found. This is why the public gets the wrong impressions and such. Why does everything have to be hush hush all the time? We need the public more involved and interested in or past and the work being done to preserve it. Its such a positive that can come from the negative impact of this highway. Took a few down for tours and spoke with all the media today about the general concerns about Glenrose and St Mungo am hoping the highyway will be elivated over the sites. At this time the cannery is still intact but i understand its days are numbered and it could be anyday now that it is removed from the site……

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  43. Well the Musqueam didn’t like my First Story episode appearance very much according to Delta police. Nice….. I am surprised they even let this blog exist with out pressure to you Q? What’s with all the heavy security and privacy to archaeology these days anyway? Really sad I can’t get any answers from anyone about the dig or plans and what will be found. Be nice to know where I could volunteer some of my spare time and knowledge not that they would ever let me I’m sure. All questions are being directed to South Fraser Perimeter Road with an Eastern # that has produced no reply to my questions to date. Also hear that Richelle was also contacted and told to butt out……

    One more thing since when does archaeology use heavy machinery to dig for them? Bound to miss a lot that way no? Maybe that’s the point?

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  44. I am new to this issue of the glenrose cannery so please bare with me. I live in the united states and i have become friends with tony hardie. He sent me the video from the tv news, which i have sent to hundreds of friends here in the u.s. It seems a lot of people are concerned about what is going to happen? We have the same issues here. Every time their is a new development, There is another archaeological site being discovered. I have seen sites where the archaeologist are given two weeks to do a study. you can not do a study in two weeks of a site that has been around for several thousand years. it needs to been done with a lot of study to record every item to detail. We have a site in the san fransisco area which has burial sites. so the local tribes are camping and protesting it, Because the state wants to put a rest stop and bathrooms, I guess they could not find another place? So i understand why the protest are going on “shelter cove”. I also understand that if glenrose is going to be destroyed that the archaeologist should have as long as it takes to study. I also see that the first nations stance as well. I am of blackfoot/cree myself. And i surely wood not want to have my ancestors dug up. But how do we know what group we belong to thousands of years ago? And then i see tony,s point as well, i am a collector and i am a amateur archaeologist. i surface study, no digging unless i am with richard michael gramly of ASAA. who is to say who owns the past when it is laying on the surface of the ground. it is funny how laws are made. In 1979 ARPA (public law 96-95; 16 u.s.c.470aa-mm) was passed in America, President jimmy carter passed legislation of the carterclause under section 7 -470ee(g) (3) states no penalty shall be assessed under this section for the removal of arrowheads located on the surface of the ground. but yet the goverment is now stating that if you do this you are stealing from the goverment.the artifact must be sub-surface. the same goverment which stole the land from the indians to begin with. also is stated that ARPA was to foster increased cooperation and exchange of information between goverment authorities, the professional archaeological community, and private indivduals having collections of archaeological resources and data which were obtained before october 31st. 1979. Yet everything here is hidden in goverment facilites which we will never see. and they even failed a audit by there own authorites. Tony wants to save and preserve that site. but if he can,t. and the archaeologist are not given a long term study, and the first nation wants their voice heard, Then i believe the cannery should be left alone. and let a watch group patrol it and still have someone help collecting the objects and recording what is being washed out. that is all of you working together, not against each other. No matter what we do or say the goverments will do what goverments do. We are destroying the earth each day by modern devolpment, Money is the core of destruction in all economies.

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  45. Do any of you out their believe that the cannery is older than 9000 years? I think it is! Has any one done any under water archaeology with in the frasier river area of the site. I bet there is a lot of artifacts buried right below that site as well as how far have they dug the original pits. Just wondering!

    Like

    • Mark, The Cannery itself was built in 1880’s and began operations I believe in 1896 as a fisherman’s co-operative. The Site itself has not been fully studied so its earliest occupants may well have been here more than 9000 years ago. The site needs and deserves much more study to revile more important dating and information in my opinion.

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  46. Thanks, Tony and two eyes! see we are working together that,s nice. How many clovis sitea are near the cannery site? I believe this site could even a have a pre-clovis culture as well. If any one has been paying attention to the paisley cave site in oregon, i believe that their were people here 1000-2000 years before the clovis culture. A lot of points have been documented as being in the same group type. i don,t think that is the case as well.

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  47. mmmm@hotmail.com

    Just a suggestion to Tony Hardie – perhaps the Musqueam are leary of your help as you appear to operate a business which profits from their cultural heritage… Again, just a suggestion.

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    • Which items are you referring to? I Don’t sell any artifacts from that site or their territory, but thanks for the suggestion. I’m about done, Spent my life protecting that area and documenting it on my time with no pay from any source. I have said my piece to the media on more than 1 occasion and voiced my concerns as well as offering to help in anyway…….I’ll do a book one day after its gone and tell the story about the life and fate of the Glenrose Cannery Site and its many treasures that will be and would have been lost forever if not for a few collectors and amateur archaeologists that have frequented the beach for many many years.

      Like

      • To anyone following this, please note that artifacts are worth little when removed from their context and archaeology is about preserving and protecting that context so the artifacts may be systematically recovered and studied – in context. Context is everything in archaeology. There are often many components at an archaeological site that date to different ages and different types of use of the site – when the artifacts are removed from the context, its hard to say much about them other than ‘they came from there’ (pointing). Ideally one finds an artifact ‘in situ’ next to a dateable hearth in house floor deposits (or something like that)…

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  48. It sounds like the muesqueam are making a profit on their past. Because if they cared about the site they claim they would be out there protesting and trying to salvage their past. somehow there is money involved in this project. By the way mmmm buying and selling artifacts is not a crime. artifacts are sold all around the world. the collectors are the ones that have saved a lot of artifacts which would be destroyed or lost forever. Try to read the laws regarding selling and buying artifacts, Tony hardie is very well known for being proper. Even museums have sold artifacts to the public over the years, I guess that makes them have the wrong interest. Also if you saw the news interveiw the elders did not speak highly of the tribal leaders.

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  49. Jim, I agree. Tony is trying to salvage what is being washed out and lost forever. yes a artifact in situ is the best way to record history. But a artifact in this enviroment is diffrent that being burried. so any recording is better that none at all. I am a blackhawks fan. My dads cousin played with 61 blackhawks,, chico Mackie. I hope the canucks rap it up. They deserve it.

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  50. fair enough MMackie, there is lots of archaeology being done with regard to surface finds in reservoirs… too bad these Fraser River and shoreline erosion surface collections could not be incorporated into the archaeological record somehow… It seems this gateway project (which spans 40 km of the Fraser River) could have included some efforts (or maybe they are??) to bring this existing data forward, have it curated and analyzed. I know of at least one collector who is willing to donate a LARGE collection recovered from the cannery site over a 20 year period – someone needs to take advantage of this offer, the gateway consultants or possibly a grad student with some abilities to negotiate. Go Canucks go…

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    • This province needs an isolated finds program for the public to post their finds without fear of prosecution and to establish exactly what is being found across the province. Artifacts are found all the time by contractors and the public in this province. The way they are now those contractors and a lot of the pubic are afraid of what will happen if they report them. Laws need to be looked at and improved and modified with input from all parties involved including the public and the collecting community for the best interests of archaeology in the 21 century. The Heritage Act and Laws are Archaic to say the least in this day and age and are long overdue for big changes.

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      • This is exactly where the ASBC can be most helpful and productive – as outreach and as an intermediary. I’m sure this has been initiated previously but not sustained within the ASBC.

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    • Jim,
      Regarding your contact with a collector who may be willing to donate his/her collection to have it analyzed and curated – can you please email me:

      jdmorin@interchange.ubc.ca

      I hope that Tony is considering donating his materials as well…

      thanks
      Jesse Morin

      Like

      • I’m VERY EXCITED! A Very Interesting fluted Artifact was found at Glenrose today. I would like the proper people to come and get it for further study. Who would that be? Would that be you Jesse? I have sent my info to your email and will wait to hear from you.

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      • fluted artifact!? or fluted projectile point?

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      • Picures posted here, I belive this is a broken Fluted Knife! Also found recently a Ground base and stemmed Lind Coulee or Parman type which is also a very early style for Old Cordillerian. I think there may very well be a Paleo layer washing out on the beach recently! Here is a link have posted a couple pictures. Thanks for getting back to me Jesse.
        http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150139565053045.282896.622563044&l=4985237325

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      • Jesse I do understand your side and what is at stake for you in this.
        I am not really upset with you just very disappointed. Well nobody called and nobody came over Today as was planed. Can you tell me who might be interested in knowing where I will be leaving this artifact? Should I call Victoria myself? I will be getting in touch with the media and going that route to document me returning such a significant artifact to the heritage site to be possibly washed away with the next tide if it can’t be researched properly by professionals. This is I believe to be the case because of First nation and Government politics, big money payoffs, personal interests & careers and of course what I believe to be First Nation insecurities over who was really here first. Are these more important than the truths about the past peopling of North America and BC archaeology in general? This Site and the Artifacts it holds may very well be more significant than any one knows or will ever know. This might be a key piece in the whole coastal migration theory. Who is to say for sure unless we dig deeper, Much Deeper! Not covering it with a Highway and Rip Rap Rock to be ruined and destroyed! I am very sad and enlightened by this whole experience so far and how it has turned out so far. Wonder what the public with think of all this if it does hit the
        Media? And most of you all think I am the big problem, I just don’t get it ………..

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  51. Thanks, Jim! If someone has a 20 year record please congradulate them. that shows what people who collect, it actually is a good deed. over here in the states there are a lot of collections on both sides. federal and private. there is so much here that they don,t have proper storage or manifestation. colleges have collections sitting in storage facilities that no one has even dealt with. improper storage. millions of artifacts will never be seen by the public. i would like to open a cultural center where people can come and study artifacts. just like library where you can study at the center it,s self.

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    • I’ve been going down for the past 34 years off and on. Probably know the person myself that Jim is referring to. There has been a least a couple dozen or more people that have gone down to the beach regularly for years. Some more than others. Have documented a few collections so far and would love to include anyone that has artifacts from the sites.

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  52. More emphasis is required on public archaeology.
    There could be “touch tanks” for lithics and other artifacts that are not fragile, and opportunities to experience culturally modified forests too.

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  53. Hi, Tony! Did you have a chance for anyone to see the DAN AMICK ARPA VIOLATION. This brings a whole new view to archaeology. Not putting anyone else down. Go canucks! you,re blackhawk friend. I sure wish i could have met chief Blackhawk, i bet he was real cool!!!!

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  54. Anyone interested you can find information regarding archaeological artifacts being sold by museums and institutions on arrowheadology. (TARL) texas archaeological research lab.

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  55. I believe that the glenrose cannery might be a pre- clovis site. All of you are sitting on a goldmine of archaeological significance get out there and study, if objects such as the one that tony recovered i bet you,re sweet arss i would be tickled. go canucks…. sharks suck. Whoooohoooooooo…i love prehistoric man. we all love the past, just admit it you kids!!!!

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  56. Sorry, I tend to get a little carried away!!!!!

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  57. Are you archaeologists or hockey fans up there????? Canucks are in the stanley cup finals and you don,t even blog. Come on you,re blackhawks fan!!! we waited 49 years. Thanks, Canucks for getting rid of the shrimps!!

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  58. Most if not all archaelogical sites of this size as well as many different cultural layers would retain burial sites. It was not uncommon for early peoples to have been born, lived, and were buried in a such a site that they were connected with. stated from Archaeologist Val Valdivia. A large burial was found in pleasanton california. They were building a large grocery chain store, but already knew there were burials from previous digs. Why they decided to disturb or might disturb the remaining sites i don,t understand. That is why NAGPRA was passed in 1990. Some people want laws passed. But sometimes it comes back to effect them as well.

    Like

  59. Pingback: Cultural Heritage Site Under Attack « nic slater

  60. The cannery is now staring to be dismantled and torn down. I will post images as it comes down on the save glenrose face bbook page i have set up. This is sad to lose such a cool Heritage building. Its a real shame! I recently met with Andrew Mason (Golder Associates) and gave him the Fluted artifact from the site and did a walk about and GPS of the location it was found. My understanding is it will be sent to UBC. I also recently seen Stantec Consulting at Glenrose. Stantec is the firm that will be doing the work at the site under the watchful eye of Leonard Ham I assume. I will contiue to document and take photos as they remove the cannery and post them on my Facebook page for now. also of note there is now Security and a Dog monitering the area. I have also recived a letter from Honourable Blair Lekstrom, Minister of Transportation regarding the plan for the site. I can post it if anyone is interested.

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  61. Interested in seeing the letter.

    Like

  62. 195222 – Glenrose Cannery

    195222 – Glenrose Cannery

    Dear Tony:

    Premier Christy Clark has asked me to respond on her behalf to your e-mail regarding the South Fraser Perimeter Road (SFPR) Project and the Glenrose Cannery site in Delta. Please accept my apologies for the lateness of this reply.

    I agree that the Glenrose Cannery site and the adjacent St. Mungo site are important to the community and First Nations. Both need to be respected and recognized, and the ministry is taking steps to do so.

    Significant archaeological studies have been undertaken to help us better understand archaeological values at these sites, and to ensure they are properly protected and managed. The ministry has been working with First Nations and the Archaeology Branch since 2003, including during the environmental assessment review process administered by the Environmental Assessment Office.

    As a result of this on-going dialogue, design changes have taken place, including shifting the alignment of the SFPR as well as the modification of construction techniques in order to avoid the most intact and significant archaeological deposits associated with these two locations. A monitoring and surveillance program will also be put in place to ensure our mitigation measures are carried out properly.

    Over and above the archaeology work we’re doing to meet regulatory requirements, the ministry has been working with First Nations and the provincial Archaeology Branch to jointly develop an acceptable long-term management plan for these sites. Plans include measures to resolve the persistent problem of the unauthorized collecting of artifacts from the St. Mungo – Glenrose Cannery sites and designing a public park/viewing area complete with interpretative signs at the St. Mungo site.

    Should you have further questions about the SFPR, I encourage you to contact Gateway Program staff by telephone at 604-775-0471 or by e-mail at info@gatewayprogram.bc.ca. They would be pleased to assist you.

    I hope this information is useful for you. Thank you for taking the time to write.

    Sincerely,

    Blair Lekstrom
    Minister

    Copy to: Premier Christy Clark

    Honourable Steve Thomson
    Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations
    MLA, Kelowna-Mission

    —–Original Message—–
    From: OfficeofthePremier, Office PREM:EX
    Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:59 AM
    To: ‘arrow@dccnet.com’
    Cc: Transportation, Minister TRAN:EX; Minister, FLNR FLNR:EX
    Subject: RE: New Message from Christy Clark Premier website

    Thank you for your email regarding preservation of the Glenrose Cannery archaeological site in North Delta.

    We appreciate the time that you have taken to share your views with us and have forwarded your email to the Honourable Blair Lekstrom, Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure, and the Honourable Steve Thomson, Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations, for their review and consideration as well. You can be assured that your comments will be included in related discussions between the Ministers and their staff.

    Again, thank you for writing.

    pc: Honourable Blair Lekstrom
    Honourable Steve Thomson

    —–Original Message—–
    From: arrow@dccnet.com [mailto:arrow@dccnet.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2011 8:56 AM
    To: OfficeofthePremier, Office PREM:EX
    Subject: New Message from Christy Clark Premier website

    Someone has filled out the form on the Christy Clark Premier website. Below are the details.

    Message for: premier@gov.bc.ca

    Senders Name: Tony hardie

    Email Address: arrow@dccnet.com

    Message:
    Glenrose Site Delta BC
    Why does the heritage act not play a role when dealing with the government? Why are they aloud to destroy, hide, damage and remove artifacts and alter an archaeological resource such as this site? This is not the first time this site has been hit by so called progress. The rail way goes right thru it, the cannery was built on the middle of it and River road covers a part of it, the Alex Fraser Bridge destroyed a massive part of it? Now the New Highway will take a huge portion of it and cover it with concrete and black top as well! What a great job of preservation the province is doing! There is a better way. My vision for this site would be to raise the highway over the sites of Glenrose and St Mungo, have ongoing virtual museum and park set up with ongoing wetsite and dry land controlled excavations that the public and schools could come to and learn from and see in progress. This would increase public awareness about the 10 000 years of occupation and fishing that has taken place there. Ministry of tourism would play a very large role in funding of the project. The site could be used for training new archaeology students so the ministry of education could also help. The cannery should and could be restored and used to house the artifacts found and set up as the main interpretive centre. Bus loads of tourists and student will and would attend year round. This project would protect and preserve the site for many generations to learn from. The money is there for a public/private partnership as I believe the cannery is now owned by Jimmy Pattison right? The damage to put footings thru the sites rather than pave the entire surface would be way lest harmful to the rich resource of information and artifact treasures that lay buried there. I would love to help spear head this type of project but time is running out fast!! Please don’t wait if you think you can help with this or any other plan as it’s the best answer for this area by far!

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    • Jan Peter Larsen

      The comments to the video and article are unbelievable. This site is not only Canadian but world heritage!!

      Like

      • Its very sad to watch the cannery building come down. It will be sad to see the site capped for a highway. There are a couple dozen archaeology students starting to do some work but it looks like a clasic cut and covr lets not find anything it will cost money…

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      • The Cannery is almost gone, Archeology work is beginning on an area south of the cannery. Looks like a very deep excavation is going to take place but I think it’s totally In the wrong location. What would I know I’m just and artifact dealing pot hunter to them right? Sure is a tight lipped operation none the less, no questions aloud at all. What a joke. Can’t believe the attitude of the crew towards me. Waste of my tax dollars at work in my opinion. Everyone is so brain washed to think that they are right and there is never a better way of doing things. That is so not progressive or positive to the advancement of archeology in general. Just one more reason why archeology is losing public funding and support these days. All about Money, Politics and pay cheques I guess… Just for the record I am so glad I’m not a brain washed archeology student working in this day and age, what a waste of time with all the politics and BS involved. There will always be better ways to do things and one should always have an open mind and be open to change in my opinion…

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  63. Tony maybe u should look at golden ears bridge n Abernathy way connector! That site was so important to my people n Canada as a whole! I choose to work in that project to SAVE our history so my children and yours can learn about my culture n heritage! NO ON WAS gonna stop that road n no one is going to stop srpf! I now work as environmental monitor on the sfp! We as first nations would rather leave our sites intact but when the powers that be are going to destroy a site, which is better us going and getting artifacts out, saving our history learning as much as possible before it is capped! Or I better that people go and ‘ pick up’ surface finds n take them home n sell them for profit with no respect from the first nations communities rhey rightfully belong to! I would rather see my history sit in museum then people like ‘FIND’ n SELL to private collectors where no one benefits or learn anything! And for crew maybe u shoul be so ignorant, they are there to perserve our history with respect! And maybe if u asked them why they do the job they are doing you would understand that! We are not brain washed arch students the are proud first nations people!

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    • Have seen the project and was very impressed with what was recovered. I never wanted to stop the SFPR just wanted to see the site and cannery preserved, learned from and properly excavated before the highway destroys it. Collectors also preserve our history as well. I do not and have not sold artifacts from this site. Have salvaged many items over the years and preserved them for study and display. Stop painting everyone with the same brush! As for a few on that crew they should stick to digging and not politics unless they are willing to see the big picture. They were rude and the comments made to me were uncalled for and totally out of the context of this project or the questions I was asking. They were rude and opinionated(brainwashed). And just for your information there is a good possibility that if DNA samples were taken from this site, they may well be from my ancestors as well. I am passionate about this site and area I live and always will be. Have a nice day 

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    • John, I disagree with you about how no one was going to stop the SFPR. Had you been interested in trying to stop it, you would have discovered that there are hundreds of people who have been working to stop the SFPR. There are even two lawsuits before the courts in regards to the road. These didn’t come about because no one was trying. Seems to me the only people NOT trying to stop the road are the only people that really could have: the First Nations. Instead, the Nation in charge of this project worked hard to silence those who had the courage to speak out.

      As for this being about your culture and heritage, this site is 10,000 years old. This isn’t just about local First Nation history and artifacts. This is about the evolution of mankind, and is of global significance.

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  64. It’s obvious that not all amateur collectors are out for self-interest and/or financial gain. Many are motivated by the apparent disregard on the part of the government in allowing or even participating in the destruction of sites such as this one and also the natural destruction of them where artifacts would simply be lost to tides, currents or other natural forces. The HCB should implement a program whereby citizens can be officially designated as collectors and have a process whereby they can have their finds legitimately documented and placed in proper repositories with attention to conservation, etc. This would separate the collectors that are legitimately concerned with the heritage value of these sites and their artifacts from pot hunters.

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    • That is a good idea Victor I totaly agree.

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    • I should also note that it felt real good to finally submit and show the location of the fluted artifact to Golder Associates but I am very disappointed that I have never heard back from anyone as to what has become of it and what the professionals thought about the piece and its significance to the lower mainland and this site in particular. I also think the public tax payers that pay the wages of you professionals should be responded to and told what the plans for the site are going to be when they show interest in the project. I especially want the info as I am in the process of collecting info and images for the Book I will publish in the future.

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      • Nice to see the government is finally funding some archeology work at the sites. Quite a large crew working several areas. I will continue to document the dig with a few images as I get the time of the work being done. A note to those who oppose my documentation of the dig and picture taking at the site. It is legal for me to take these images from the public sidewalk and I will continue to do so . Please stop wasting MY tax dollars and the delta police time worrying about what I’m doing there and why. If you can’t tell already I am passionate about this site and what is going to happen to it in the wake of the SFPR. I am taking the images for a book I am writing and for the face book album for the public to see because you guys won’t tell anybody anything and that’s just wrong! If you want to see my book when it’s done you can buy it! Have a great dig and I hope you guys find lots of good information about the site and the people that lived here.

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  65. It seems to me that money is the only thing that is the object behind this whole project. To make the road for trucks to run products for corporations and to get that product from point A to point B in a much faster time. Anyone who has salvaged anything out of this site did the right deed. This year at the templeton artifact show in texas where artifacts are bought and sold, texas A&m university for the study of first americans worked together with the dealers and guest at this show. About 40 people were invited to the gault site and given a tour about this site by Dr. Clark Wernecke. This is how we can all work together. Who can claim a site that is pre-clovis? I know i can,t. My great grandmother was born on the reservation Blackfoot/Cree or pawnee! My mom and aunt are not sure because of the politics back in the early 1900,s. It seems to me that the casinos are more important than the past. Too bad. I know that if there was a site that i knew belonged to my past they would not be bulldozen it. DNA is the awnser.

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  66. Victor, Dan Amick is a professional archaeologist. Why don,t you try to pick on him or any archaeologist instead of the so-called pot hunters. You think that none of the professionals don,t have their own collections. Wake-up!!!

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  67. Mark, I didn’t say anything about Dan Amick. I’m saying there are good and bad among collectors just as there are among any group of people and I’m making a constructive suggestion on solving the problem to some extent. Pay attention to what you read dip shit!

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  68. Victor! what group besides collectors are you talking about? it seems to me that you don,t have the balls to mention a certain group! If you know what i am talking about than stop picking on collectors. If you only knew how many artifacts are in museums and institutions that you will never see. And dan amick is a professional archaeologist, Why don,t you pick on him for what he did? By the way some of the greatest archaeologist were amateur,s.. Pay attention to what you read dip shit!!!

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  69. Victor! My apology for mis-reading you,re blog. you are right. I had a long day and all of this is very sad. too many sites have been destroyed.

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  70. Apology accepted Mark. I guess we all have days like that.

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  71. Right On Richelle Giberson! You nailed it on the head. Many people in north america have stood and watch the mistreatment of North America Native Americans by our goverments. We have seen the destruction of their culture, Language and the Archaeological sites which were abundant and now are gone for ever because of the expansion of europe into the North Americas. The reservations are a true reminder of a job well done by our goverments. Pine Ridge has 95% poverty the highest in the U.S. And the Goverment keeps giving money and that turns into drugs and Alcohol. Elders have died due to the cold winters and not having heat or electricity. So when Native Americans feel that people don,t care that is untrue. Archaeologist Professional or amateur as well as Collectors or hobbyist or even museums. We all have a deep passion for the past and the people who made the beautiful Objects left behind. When you can hold a object that was made 12000 years ago in you,re hand it reminds you of a better time on this Continent. We all support Native Americans all over the North Americas. I am truly sorry for what has been done. I never got to meet my great gramma who was born on a reservation.

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    • Richelle, thanks for this and thanks to Tony for helping elevate the level of public awareness about the work happening at this crucially important site.

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  72. Tony, have you considered that maybe reason the crew is upset with you taking pictures of them is that they are concerned you might accidentally snap a pic of some sensitive material e.g. a burial? I think that is a very good reason for keeping the public away and putting up fences; to respect the ancestral remains of the FN in the area. I am also concerned that you plan on publishing photos of the site and the crew without their consent and without written consent from the FNs involved. Your passion for the Glenrose site is clear and I hope is isn’t clouding your judgment. I believe there is a way for amateur and professional archaeologists to work together to achieve a common goal, but I’m not sure that dismissing the warnings of the crew is the best way of accomplishing that.

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    • Sorry if I offend you or anyone else. People that work in government jobs get their pictures taken all the time while at work do they not? I don’t see the issue? I am sure there will be many burials uncovered during the time spent working there. Might very well even be my ancestors too! DNA can prove that in this day and age. Too bad it’s not used and documented very often before the remains are reburied. I have much respect for the First nation People and ancestors as well as the story they leave behind, The whole story. The truth is all I am after. There has been way to much being hidden and undisclosed with this whole project. I have been shown nothing but disrespect from the workers right from the start. They took my picture without my consent and lied to delta police saying I was trespassing when I was not. Please don’t tell me about respect. The workers have made raciest comments about where my Salish ass should go back too and I have even been threatened. I do not need consent to take photos from public sidewalks of tax payer funded work projects last time I checked(And I have). If anyone ever has a problem with a picture I post or use they can tell me and I will Photoshop them out or remove the image if necessary. I try to be very discrete and understanding with the images I post or use. It’s that simple, no problem they just need to communicate and let me know via email or phone. I would love to see and learn about the work being done, Have a tour and even contribute and help with the screening and work but am excluded for political reasons and politics. I would also be very open to discussing this and any other issues you they may have. I am just wanting more openness with this project and the public’s right to know what is planned for the site and the scope of the work that will and is being done. Public tours of the site and Brochures about the archeology project would be a good place to start for those of us not in the loop. T

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      • just saying......

        I applaud your passion for the site, but those aren’t govt employees. They are private citizens working for a company under contract. Also – please be honest. You have trespassed on the site numerous times over the years. Your facebook photos are proof of it.

        If I were one of those workers, I’d be very unhappy about your posting my picture on the internet.

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  73. Hi, Turtle! sensitive is the right word. When a burial has been there e.g. at this more than likely pre-clovis site. That it should not be disturbed by professional or non-professional archaeology. Who gives any one the right to disturb such places. Science is a great thing but i think enough indian burials have been disturbed either by looters or archaeologist. I think that archaeology is has been a great tool, but it has removed hundreds of thousands of burials. And a lot of those are being stored right now. Having respect for ancestral burials is to leave them alone.

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  74. Mark, I agree with you and I bet the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the road would agree with you, too. Speaking of the lawsuit, a story about it was in the Vancouver Sun:
    http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/First+nations+take+government+court+save+ancient+burial+sites+from+road+construction/5330596/story.html

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    • I was miss quoted in that article as I am actualy interested in the whole site not just the burials. I also am very pleased some work is being done before the highway impacts it…. On another note the cannery is now gone and all that remains is the floor and piles that keep it out of the river.

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  75. Yes I agree let’s be honest, the majority of the workers are first nation band members working for a Stantec Archeology that’s paid by my taxes in around about way correct? By the way, just saying, Its not against the law or trespassing to walk on the Fraser river bank and the beach and document what’s naturally eroding out of the bank and beach because its federal land below high water mark. That makes it public property correct? It is completely legal to take the pictures I have to document what has now been destroyed all in the name of progress. I have been fighting that highway project and to have the site and cannery protected for over 10 years now… funny how the people there now have only showed up now that the pay cheques are flowing… Where was the passion to protect and learn from the site for the last 30 years? Finally in closing I must also state the images are of the work being done and are not about the individual people doing the job. They are just part of the story.

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    • just saying......

      I’d be interested to see you try that reasoning with security at any of our container terminals. 😉

      Foreshore access is considered a privilege, not a right. I know it seems odd, but it’s true. If the govt has leased the foreshore to a private entity, they have the right to restrict public access to the foreshore (except for the right to embark/disembark from a vessel in an emergency). If you didn’t have permission from the leaseholders, you were trespassing. I suppose you could argue that you have a moral right to be on the property but legally, it’s still trespassing.

      Believe me or don’t but I’m providing this information for your benefit, not just because I like to hear myself talk (which I do).

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  76. Thanks for your advice just saying. I am aware of the laws and do try and abide by them. Various watchmen and property owners let me do just that over the past 30+ years. I was also very recently advised by Delta Police that I am aloud to go to the beach and take pictures and document the site but if I am ever asked to leave I should and do. I do not climb fences or enter any of the areas that are now under demolition or being studied. I have also taken a step back and decided that my goal has always been to protect, educate and preserve this site and area and not to fight, destroy, alter or damage any of it like so many of you seem to think. I really am on the same page as many who wanted to see this area preserved in the wake of the SFPR. I will as stated remove any images of the work being done if there is a legitimate problem with them in good faith and have already done so with a couple of them. All I ever wanted was to be a part of the project and help. Would love to work with not against them. I also still believe the public and FN people all have a right to know what is being done to preserve the site. I believe I have done that pretty well so far and will now just sit back and wait for the reports to come out when the work is done and continue to work on my book about the site and the fantastic story it holds. I will continue to visit the area and watch the work being carried out when I have free time. It is of great interest to me and always has been. Is that a crime? I don’t think so. What a shame the way politics have changed the way amateurs and professionals look at each other. It’s a shame people are judged without the facts and all painted with the same brush. Things really need to change in this area before its to late…

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  77. just saying did you work at stalag 13? You act like someone who did! Since when do Native people help take artifacts from a site that they don,t even know is their heritage, I have heard of some propaganda but this thick. I remember reading that the muesqueam were against items being removed and now they are helping the work being done. What a joke! how much money was deposited in their bank account? This must be Corporate Archaeology!!!!! Hope you rot in you,re grave!!!!

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  78. Mark, sk’ʷey čxʷ wə yəθəstalə tə xʷməθkʷəy’əmaɬ sxʷtəhi:m (You can’t tell us as First Nations people what we know of our heritage and what belongs to us). ʔəwə čxʷ ɬəqəlləxʷ ʔə tə nə sxʷtəhi:m ct ʔiʔ ʔəwə čxʷ ɬəqəlləxʷ ʔə tə nə ɬəqəlləxʷ ʔə λ’ xʷmec’ənəɬp (You don’t know our knowledge about the Sunbury area). ʔiʔ ʔəwə wə nanəm tə nəwə ʔiʔ ʔəwə ɬəqəlləxʷ tə nəwə ( And you shouldn’t be commenting on our behalf from ignorance!)

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  79. Victor, DNA will say if that is you,re heritage, But that probably won,t happen. since that site has multi-cultural layers how can you say what belongs to you? Besides that site is pre-clovis which proves that. Nice job with You,re fancy computer skills. By the way natives who are friends of mine don,t care for what you bunch are doing. My grandmother was born on the reservation blackfoot/ cree maybe that site has some items that belonged to my ancestors. Who is to say from a time period you and me were not a part of. You,re ignorance is working with the goverment!!!

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  80. I’ve been reading this long debate as it unfolds with a lot of interest. There are clearly strongly-held opinions on all sides and certainly some clash of perspectives. It’s rare to see such a diversity of voices coming together to speak to a single issue in BC archaeology. I’d like to think they all stem from an appreciation of the incredible historical record encapsulated at Glenrose.

    In my view, it would indeed be helpful to have more information on the CRM – salvage archaeology project currently underway at Glenrose. A vacuum of information will be filled rapidly with misinformation and perhaps mistrust. Maybe I’ll make a post on it sometime, though I hate to interrupt the dialogue unfolding here. I have a lot of questions about what is going on down there, though the answers may be readily available – I haven’t looked much of late, still being an off-duty blogger here!

    One thing, in the comment above by mark, Glenrose is many things but it’s not pre-Clovis. In Clovis times the Fraser mouth was probably near the confluence with the Pitt River, and Glenrose itself may even have been under Sumas Glaciation ice. If not under ice, it was under water. So based on current environmental data (which I am not an expert on) it would seem to be impossibly for Glenrose to actually be very much older than the earliest component known from it – that is, about 9,000 radiocarbon years ago. Other more knowledgeable people might chip in here.

    I hasten to add, that is plenty old enough for it to be a national treasure.

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  81. qmackie, a geological historian with whom I spoke correlated our oral history for the site with her data. She had map overlays that documented the progression of the delta over time. According to her record our oral history related to the site coincides with 5,000-5,500 years ago.
    Mark, our oral history has been challenged since the first arrival of explorers and settlers. We maintain it’s truth and science has slowly caught up with it despite social attitudes and will continue to do so.

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  82. Victor and qmackie i appreciate you,re opinions about the site. I am very upset with how Tony has been treated and can understand his frustrations. as a child he grew up with this site and has become very vocal about it. If he was doing something wrong he sure would not be posting it! He just wants to be a part of the work bring done. i took Archaeology and found it to be to political as well. Also tony found a fluted section of a paleo point which i believe that that site is older than 9000ybp. Victor the site is around 9000ybp than how can FN claim it if you are stating 5000-5500ybp. We have no way of complete accuracy with science. we also can not be completely accurate in which paleo indians traveled and maintained any site locations because a lot of sites could be under water as well. I wish that professional and non professional Archaeology could work together and stop all the BS. We all have a right to the past.

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  83. Mark, just because my consultations with geological historians has yielded estimations that place our peoples’ occupation of the Fraser Delta at 5,000-5,500 years ago doesn’t mean that our people have only been here for that long. Again, science keeps proving our oral history to be true. Back in the the 1920’s, 30’s & even up to the present people have been calling our elders liars. It’s not true.

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  84. Victor, I believe that you,re FN has had occupation with that site. But that doe,s not mean that there was not other occupation to it prior. All i am saying is that many sites all over North America were Inhabited by different tribal groups which makes any claim to just one group for any site a very sensitive argument. And no elders of the past are liars. We live in a world that Has been very hostile in which many cultures have been destroyed.

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  85. Mark, when I speak about our oral history showing our presence there at 5000-5500 years ago I’m speaking of a culture that was well established at the time the ocean shore was there at that location. That means it had to take thousands of years to develop up to that point. It’s documented and I don’t have to prove it to you. Do the research and quit expecting someone else to do the work for you.

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  86. just saying......

    I’ll certainly rot in my grave; I haven’t led a pure enough life to be incorruptible in the Roman Catholic sense. Besides, the price of a burial plot is insane so I’m leaning towards cremation. Thanks for being concerned about my mortal remains.

    If a FN has only two choices – (1) letting the site be buried without their input and knowledge or (2) participating, gaining employment for their people and ensuring that there is something preserved from this mess, the wise and pragmatic thing to do is to be part of the process to make sure their interests are protected. Cutting off your nose to spite your face may be satisfying, but it hurts you more than anyone else in the end.

    Sure it would be wonderful if anyone who wanted to could go to the site and sign up to help, but life doesn’t work that way. Would it be better if the Musqueam had declared they wanted nothing to do with the project and left the construction workers and ‘brainwashed archaeologists’ Stantec has on site to decide what was important enough to preserve?

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  87. Did FN make a profit off this site? If they did then i can no longer agree to what they have done. And no one can complain about what Tony does either.

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  88. Just saying, Are you FN member? I would like to know and the public has right to know if payment was made to FN. To allow this site to be destroyed!!!!

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    • Mark, our local newspaper reported on this issue last week. In fact, it was the front page story for the August 30, 2011 edition of the Surrey/North Delta Leader. In it, the story says:

      Local First Nations bands, far from opposing the perimeter road, have signed onto a monitoring agreement with the province to guide the archaeology work and receive compensation and jobs for their band members.
      The Tsawwassen, Musqueam, Katzie, Kwantlen and Kwikwetlem have all signed on.

      So it looks like they have received compensation for allowing this to happen.

      Here’s a link to the story:
      http://www.bclocalnews.com/surrey_area/surreyleader/news/128478753.html

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  89. just saying, Archaeologist are not brainwashed! I believe there are Honest and dishonest Archaeologist. That is why they have created monitoring at archaeological sites. When you have Thousands and thousands of people working at archaeological sites there will be things taken. I don,t believe the code of ethics has been something to also believe in as well. I don,t care if archaeologist get some items at a site. Hell they work for it!! but don,t complain about people who have or collect them selves. As long as they are going by the laws. There are more private collections than there are in goverment collections. And they can choose to share or not to share that information, depends on how they keep getting treated.

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  90. just saying......

    No mark, I’m not a FN member. Just someone who’s interested in the site.

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  91. Thank you Richelle! This is exactly what i am talking about. Tony hardie gets crap because he sells legally obtained artifacts which were grandfathered in with all of the laws back in the 1970,s. and those laws apply to museums, private collections,colleges, and the federal goverments institutions. and yes the goverments have items that they are not supposed to have as well. And yet we have the FN getting paid for this site. So i guess you can sell you,re past if you are a FN. What a bunch of crap. FN don,t cry when you have chosen you,re path to sell you,re ancestors out. Shame on you!!!

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  92. Mr geoff freer, Its seems that digging and removing artifacts and not sharing that information is subject to misleading propaganda! And paying the FN to silence this whole project makes you look like the looter.

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  93. To whom it may concern:
    Just for the record, All I ever wanted was to preserve this site and or see it preserved. I am sad the Glenrose cannery could not be salvaged intact and is now gone but was very impressed with the very environmentally sound way it was recycled and dismantled. I am very happy I was able to document that with photos throughout the process. I am very happy money is now finally… being spent to salvage some of the story and artifacts from Glenrose DgRr 6 and what’s left of St Mungo DgRr 2 before the SFPR destroys them and buries what’s left of them forever. I really feel like I have been absolutely disrespected by employees of Stantec consultants right from the start as well as the majority of the First Nations involved in this project. Never once did they try and see both sides or work with any of us that have been passionate about protecting and preserving this site. I realize why they feel the way they do now and understand how they have been brainwashed to think that I am a looter and a Pot hunter but I maintain that I am not and never will be. I am a very ethical collector and artifact dealer and do not deal in stolen or looted artifacts nor will I ever. I do not sell items I have picked up from this Site or any other in BC! I spent many hours over the past 35 years walking that particular section of the river picking up items that had naturally eroded out of the river bank at high tide due to the constant erosion from the current. The changes in the current made to the river after the construction Alex Fraser Bridge and the destruction of a very large portion of the St Mungo Site. I also was witness to the constant erosion from the always increasing shipping traffic up and down the Fraser as well as the continual shaking of the ground when trains overhead would run by. Constantly over the course of time amazing items would wash out of the beach and erode from the banks to be damaged and destroyed if not washed away forever if not for the collectors that went down there on a regular basis to collect and preserve the many wonders that appeared at almost every low tide. It’s a real shame that the people that cared the most are now the looked at as criminals and a so called looters in your eyes. I disagree as does the majority of the public although due to the out dated and archaic laws of the heritage act, that’s what it makes me in the eyes of the law and the professional archeological community. It’s a real great thing to finally see the First Nations of BC take a major role in the protection of such a magnificent and spiritual place but makes me wonder at their motive when they only showed up once the pay cheques started to flow. I hear 7 First Nations are now claiming this place. Must be money involved now eh? Where have you all been the last 35 years that I have been going there and protecting it? Never seen any of you? How dare you all look down on me and judge me for looking after this place and protecting it when no one else was. Just for the record, I have NO bad karma from my time spent here, just happy memories and good times and a wealth of great new friends not to mention all the great gifts from the people that left them here before me. What’s worse is now that you’re finally here and spending my tax dollars to learn and find stuff, you won’t give me the time of day let help in any way or watch and learn without constant harassment from your workers and private security. I have been very respectful of your ceremonies and of all of your personal pictures by not posting them on line but I see I will not get any respect or inclusion for you this way so I will no longer restrain from posting the pictures I have legally taken from the public Sidewalk that the taxpaying public who funds this work and highway has every right to see. I am also very unimpressed with the behavior of the professional archeologists and lack of interest in what anybody without a PHD in archeology has to offer about such a site. It’s really too bad how this field has evolved and been controlled by few in positions of power and people with closed minds. In this field you should always have an open mind and be open to other ideas and concepts you would think? The boys at the top in Victoria running this show are not voted in and I think it’s high time they were! It’s all about money and protecting jobs. I have also learned that we will never learn the true story about this place due to the politics and in fighting of First Nations and the control over the Archeologists. You are all working with one hand tied behind your backs the way things are set up now with close minded dictators running the show. I have really learned a lot about all of you working at this site in the last couple months and the attitudes put forth and hope to bring the politics of all of this to the public and government for a much closer look in the future. Welcome to the real world, the modern world where information is shared freely on a world wide web. Have a great day! Tony Hardie

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  94. Its curious that no one from the project is presenting on the ongoing research at this site at the BC Archaeology Forum happening in Squamish this weekend. Its a probably the largest archaeological project in the province happening right now and itd be great to hear about the research plan at least.

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  95. I am looking forward to the reports being done on this very large ongoing project. I will use some of the info for my book on the area and Sites. It looks like they have made some interesting finds and have recovered a few very nice artifacts. They have unearthed several ancestors in the process as well. Sad that this amazing site and place will be destroyed for the most part once the highway goes thru it and over it…wish it was not such a private project at this time. I am sure many of us would find this work very interesting.

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  96. @Tony Hardie, I work on this project and you have taken pictures of me and crew with out our consent. I have see you post rude things on pictures about certain crew members and I my self do not want to be connected to you or your book in any way. I know from speaking with crew members that NONE of us want to have our pictures or names conncted to you or published in your book. I would like to make that clear to you and once the project is complete I would love to meet with you and make that clear to you in person and in writing.please be respectful of our choice.

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  97. For the record It has been completely legal for me to take all the pictures I have taken and they will remain MY property to do with what I choose when I choose. I will not be bullied by you or anyone else. I have never had any intention to upset any of you or use any images in a negative way. I have never posted any rude things about anyone just facts as they have taken place. That is another Lie! Also in my thinking respect will get respect and you and many of the crew have never shown me any respect from the beginning of this project. You have even lied on more than one occasion about me trespassing when I have not. Seems strange you are now asking for me to respect your wishes when you have done nothing but make up stories and false accusations about who I am and what I stand for and do with my time. I am easy to contact and communicate with when it’s done with respect and without threat. Have a good evening….

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  98. You posted that if we didn’t want our pictures used to contact you n you wouldn’t use them.. I’ve never treatened bullied or harrased you, for i have NEVER had any contact with personally, onsite or off of site. I’ve never disrespect you in any way, you don’t even know what crew member you are talking to you so how can you say I have not show you respect??? Seems you are the one making things up now! I’ve never made any accusations true or false about you. Ive never called rcmp about you trespassing etc. what ever ftgc or Stantec does, is the two companies choice n no way the crews responsablities so please stop say ‘you’, I have never personally spoke to you or had anything thing to do with the troubles you have . I follow polices n procedures set out by companies I work for! When I am not under contract and on this project I will contact you personally via and would love to finally speak with you personally.

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    • Sorry your points are well taken and I will also say sorry for using the word You. That was wrong and no better than painting all collectors with the same brush. I will not use your image or anyone else that has an issue with me putting their image in any book I do. I never planned on using any images that would upset anyone. That was never the point. The point was and is that the archeology is a big part of the Glenrose and St Mungo story that I hope to write about in the future. I am not the enemy. Really the only ones that have ever shown me respect have been Doug and his Brother and their boss Dave. (Security) It’s just a shame that I have been treated by so many there with such disrespect, thus my defensive attitude. Would be happy to speak with you or anyone that can be respectful and unthreatening…

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  99. I wish this blog could go back to talking about the Glenrose and St Mungo sites and the work being done and the amazing information that is likely being uncovered with all the man hours going into this project and the vast size of this project and large area being covered. That is very good to see! Thanks for your efforts.

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  100. Was searching for some on the geomatting used at Lake Mungo and came across this site.

    Yes, I can confirm that that is Dr. Tom Loy (my old supervisor) digging at the Glenrose Cannery Site. One of his first excavations I believe. The photo if my memory recalls was of Tom digging at the bottom of possibly near or in an old cesspit. Apparently (and my memory is stretched here going back 10 years) there was a strong smell ever present and a foul smelling liquid occasionally seeped out of the walls. I think he even mentioned that the water table sometimes creeped into the pit and had to be bucketed out, although this might be other areas on the site and not necessarily this test pit.

    Tom used to use this photo to demonstrate how things used to be done in archaeology – ie. no shoring, shirt off, bottom of a giant pit.

    He would be most interested to hear about what has happened at the Glenrose site.

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  101. I never heard the cesspit story before and sadly Tom died a few years ago so can’t be asked to tell the tale.

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  102. For those following archaeological news in the lower mainland, Musqueam Nation and other supporters have launched an occupying protest demanding the protection of the Marpole Village (the ‘Great Fraser Midden’) from a poorly thought through condo development

    CBC news has great video footage of some of the speakers:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/05/03/bc-marpole-midden-musqueam-protest.html

    there is also a Vancouver media coop page concerning the protest:
    http://vancouver.mediacoop.ca/photo/musqueam-set-camp-condo-site-after-infant-graves-desecrated/10757

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  103. bernadettekeenan

    wish there was so much concern with the Glenrose and St Mungo’s sites.

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    • BernadetteKeenan – I as well. But I applaud for Musqueam to make this concerted effort to take a stand at a key site close to home. It seems difficult to evaluate what is happening at the Glenrose/St Mungo site complex and other disturbed and threatened sites along the Fraser Perimeter highway when there seems to be a policy of non-disclosure that runs counter to the public interest in our collective heritage – what is being found there and how is it being handled?

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  104. more key info from Musqueam: in-depth background on the path to the current archaeological disaster unfolding at the Marpole village

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  105. bernadettekeenan

    They seemed to be doing some excavation at the site, but that has all stopped now it looks like. Have heard nothing about what if anything was unearthed.

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  106. bernadettekeenan

    Glenrose – St Mungo’s sitte that is.

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  107. The UBC Anthropology Graduate Student Association has written a letter in support of the Musqueam in regards to the condo development with underground parking at the National Historic Site known as the Marpole Midden: http://ubcanthgrads.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/letter-in-support-of-the-musqueam-nation/

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  108. I totally agree with Bernadett! Where was all this opposition at Glenrose and St mungo. Guess its ok to pave over your Ancestors in return for jobs and money? Sad what this world has become…..None the less good luck with the protest, The world is watching how we respect the past all in the name of progress. Look what’s happening to Burns Bog as well! We should all be ashamed of all we are destroying in such a short period of time here.

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  109. Any ideas on how we could find out what was found recently at St Mungo’s and Glenrose sites? If people knew the bones of ancestors were being disturbed, maybe they would be more motivated to protect those locations.

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  110. Another site completely covered and destroyed all in the name of progress! What a disappointment. so much more could have been learned here…Always two sides to every argument… Sigh. I still don’t think this is good for the site but I am just an opinion. Very sad to see it go regardless. I guess we will see what happens after they finish. I am glad to see that things will no longer wash out and wash away with the tides. That said this project will permanently cover and destroy more artifacts and disturb this heritage site more than any collector ever has in the past surface collecting what has washed out over the years preserving the artwork from the prehistoric past for future research, study and enjoyment.
    http://www.surreyleader.com/news/258208711.html?fb_action_ids=10152063594828045&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

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  111. My video story of the some of last days of this very special Site and place can be viewed here…Enjoy, Thanks for the memories Glenrose from those who knew it best. Book will follow on day but for now I need to digest all that has happened and wait for the reports from the paid professionals now. http://youtu.be/1NqwVa-cqng

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  112. Do you have the aboriginal name of the St Mungo/Glenrose site? Thank you. Gary wing

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  113. It refers to Black Hawthorne/crowberries that were once plentiful there.

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  114. My new Blog has my video of my documentation for any of you that have an interest. https://mobilemuseumcablog.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/rip-glenrose-cannery/

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